Methane thinking for cars
These excerpts are an exchange of ideas between members of the Difference about the use of methane for fuelling cars. I think it its very interesting how two very different people on two continents can think their way through a problem and how Sunstyle is able to use members of the Difference in this creative process:
Dear Gianni
The price of petrol is around R7/litre now!
We need an alternate (not alternative) form propellant.
Now flowing down the back yard is a sewerage pipe for the 20 or so houses up the street.
How might we build a small domestic gasometer in the back garden?
Cheap, effective and renewable gas.
Do you have any ideas please?
Doug
This is way technical - give me 'til the weekend and I'll get back to you.
Remember however, that in SA the govt. has never promoted LPG or CNG for cars, instead it developed SASOL (Fischer-Tropp process from low-grade coal) to promote mining in Eastern Tvl (and break embargoes) and the methanol from sunflower oil to keep farmers growing. Also, SA has no major reserves of natural gas. In SA, methane is a clean grade (i.e. industrial quality) of synthetic gas - I don't think it's "mined" like in the North Sea or N of Australia - hence it's expensive. As a comparison, LPG at fuel stations here costs around $0.50/litre while petrol is around $1.50/litre. However since you only get half as far on 1 litre of LPG as you do on 1 litre of pertol, its still only 2/3 of the cost per kilometer. The AU govt is investing $1.5 BILLION over the next 5 yrs to subsidise new LPG cars and conversions from petrol to LPG (remember that AU mines its own CNG and LPG, whereas oil is imported).
Dear Gianni
Thanks for the info so far. A little update. they have discovered huge natural gas reserves in Mocambique and a pipeline was commissoned about 18 months ago. It is being built as we speak! The SA govt. is pressurizing the gas companies to reduce the cost of LP gas to consumers and ESKOM has been giving out free LPgas canisters and cookers in Kayalitsha after we piloted a scheme in Orange Farm through AFROX.
Important to know the 3/4 consumption rate.
Normal LPGas cannot be used efficiently in motor vehicles I have as they require a purer form. That is why I have plumped for methane and because we can produce it locally. Not sure if it will be in sufficient quantities though.
Once I can run a local domestic unit. I can install a lrger one in mamelodi where Moses stays. Would just love to sell methane and do conversions to local taxis!
Apparently new delhi lives on methane and so does most of pakistan...why not the good old RSA?
Doug
pls explain: why are you ordering a CNG kit. Where do you find CNG in SA? why do you say that cars require a purer form of LPG? (CNG is predominantly methane, wheras LPG is predominantly propane - cars are tuned differently). What kind of problems does it cause? I'd say that if natural gas is available in SA, then CNG is the way to go.
As far as I remember, LPG in SA is synthesized (I assume predominantly ) by SASOL from coal, or it is imported since it comes from natural gas, which SA doesn't have, hence I can see why it should be expensive. For comparison, it costs $15 (around R75) to refill a 9kg LPG canister here at a petrol station. I'm sure commercial contracts (i.e. hospitals, hotels, restaurants) etc must be cheaper. I'll work out what the density of LPG is - i.e. Litres per kilogram, and we'll have a basis for calculation. I'll also find out what the commercial costs are like.
CNG, LPG and methane are gasses, and all are petroleum or coal based. The fuel that was of interest when I worked at Dept. of Mineral & Energy as an "alternative energy" assistant were the alcohols; methanol and ethanol. Both are easily manufactured from biowaste. The raw material of choice for alcohol production is fermentable organic and animal waste - this can be highly accelarated with bio-enhancers and can yield high quality alcohols depending on the raw material and bacterial combination. Manufacturing alcohols is easy for cattle and pig farmers, the problem is the cost and logistics of collecting and taking the small production batches to central collection points.
The last element of auto fuels is sunflower or canola oil, as an alternative to diesel.
This covers the auto fuels. Regarding domestic fuels, your sewerage however, has 2 problems: water dilution and pathology. If one uses fermentable organic waste, then you manufacture alcohols, which are not really suited to domestic consumption. There are waste converters available that generate methane (swamp gas) from compost, but the conversion rates are poor, or houses would be self sufficient with gas to provide waterheating and cooking.
Stellenbosch University (I'm almost certain it was them) did a reseach project in the mid-80's of a domestic waste converter to generate electricty (i.e. generate heat from waste to run a turbine to run a generator) for domestic use. The technology worked, since domestic waste is a nett enegy source when correctly dried and sorted. The practical difficulties were related to separating the waste and to the dryness of the combustible waste. This meant that you need space to store "large" quantities of waste to air-dry; hence storing and preparing domestic waste was not a practical proposition.
So, this leaves us with your original problem unsolved - fuel for transport and fuel for domestic use.
I know you're looking for alterantive fuels, not alternative technology, but electrical technology is the way to go - it is safe, clean and economically viable. Exchange batteries can be charged via solar panels, and for vehicles, up to (I think) 70% of the vehicle's kinetic energy can be recaptured through regenerative braking.
This is not a simple problem, the technology will move towards high efficiency solar panels and batteries for cars and bulk electricity moving towards wind, tidal and nuclear.
Dear Gianni
What I read is that the sewerage pipes idea is not feasible. The smell and the effort required to sort-out waste makes domestic production of fuel unfeasible.
You suggest electric but that means a new fleet of vehicles yeah?
So we are basically fucked unless we all ride horses or go by bicycle.
Hmm ...come on Gianni you can come up with something here.
Oh by the way I am currently in the planning phase of an ethanol producing farming operation.. These guys use indigenous trees and they want me to train people and provide some retail supply chain links. Havent heard from them for a few weeks though.
I got the info about Lp gas from an Indian website: http://www.axisauto.com/
They supply components for cars to use CNG's and Lpgas.
Oh yes so back to electricity...If I got a tray of batteries cwhat would I need to do to simply use them every day to drive our Nissan sentra. Electricity would probably be cheaper than petrol is at present!
I know you are dealing with a complete amateur and a non-engineer...thanks for being so kind and gentle with me on these things. i promise when you need help with social development issues or philosophy or politics, i will be kind to you...
If methane is used in vehicles in Delhi, Brazil and Pakistan then we can use it in our cars. [Agree - it comes from petroleum, either synthesized as by SASOL, or pumped from fields as in India and in the future, we could also pump it from the Mozambique gas fields - I'm sure that Shell, BP, Caltex and the local politicians are onto this already....]
If methane is made from decaying bi-degradable waste, then could we not use one of your water purifiers to take waste water and recycle it and then take the solid bio-degradable waste which has been filtered out and subject this waste to a digestion process? [Yes, the Tswane City Council is already doing this at their sewerage farms , except they bio-degrade the crap, and not turn it into alcohol - wonder why? Fire risk and pilfering, and some serious technology shortage, and the fact that petrol is cheaper.]
I have drawn a rough plan for the house waste which involves a water pump, a plastic 210 litre drum, a readu supply of condoms, an air pump and a gas bottle (with regulator of course). What do you think the production of methane for our house would be? [Probably not enough to power your PC to send these e-mails. ]
Four of us plus the gardener who lives on the premises? [ I could post you ours too....[
humour me [- sarcasm is humour, just not very good humour. ]
[Energy is a technology issue, you won't overcome it with a "grass-roots" approach. Unless we all live in mud huts, use cold water and only need energy for light and running a small fridge to keep the white wine in, even a wealthy family simply cannot generate enough waste to produce viable energy, unless it's willing to spend big money to build an integrated incinerator + steam generating plant + steam turbine + synchronous generator unit. Its ROI would probably be 100,000 years.
For transport, the oil-less solution lies in fuel cells, solar charging of battery technology, power capacitors and energy storage flywheels - which BP, Shell, and Caltex will introduce when the oil runs out - I just hope they get the timing right....
Regarding public infrastructure, mag-lev trains and decentralised work areas linked with super rail networks will greatly reduce the need for micro transport (i.e. people and goods within local areas). In the meanwhile, for as long as consumer-based industry helps getting politicians elected (i.e. while my arse points to the ground), this ain't gonna happen.
Doug, let this one go - turn your attention to removing the cost of transport, or import a few thousand Chinese and Thai men with rickshaws....]
Dear Gianni
This I guess is part of the difference twixt thee and me. Once I get a little idea in my head I cannot let it go...
Something you said made me call Mr. Mostert at the Baviaanspoort sewerage works. he reports that they use the gasses to fire some turbines in their works!
He also remembers a Marlene vd Merwe who studied the use of methane and is currently working at the Krugersdorp works. I have her e-mail address and will get back to you. Apparently there are a number of others interested in her work and she actually runs the labs vehicles off methane.
Mr. Mostert has no problem with the concept and even suggested we could run a tester at his works on one of the smaller sludge dams as he would be most interested in saving petrol on his works' vehicles!
Now if we could hook our wagons on the baviaanspoort gas....our petrol costs dissapear....
Dear Gianni
The price of petrol is around R7/litre now!
We need an alternate (not alternative) form propellant.
Now flowing down the back yard is a sewerage pipe for the 20 or so houses up the street.
How might we build a small domestic gasometer in the back garden?
Cheap, effective and renewable gas.
Do you have any ideas please?
Doug
This is way technical - give me 'til the weekend and I'll get back to you.
Remember however, that in SA the govt. has never promoted LPG or CNG for cars, instead it developed SASOL (Fischer-Tropp process from low-grade coal) to promote mining in Eastern Tvl (and break embargoes) and the methanol from sunflower oil to keep farmers growing. Also, SA has no major reserves of natural gas. In SA, methane is a clean grade (i.e. industrial quality) of synthetic gas - I don't think it's "mined" like in the North Sea or N of Australia - hence it's expensive. As a comparison, LPG at fuel stations here costs around $0.50/litre while petrol is around $1.50/litre. However since you only get half as far on 1 litre of LPG as you do on 1 litre of pertol, its still only 2/3 of the cost per kilometer. The AU govt is investing $1.5 BILLION over the next 5 yrs to subsidise new LPG cars and conversions from petrol to LPG (remember that AU mines its own CNG and LPG, whereas oil is imported).
Dear Gianni
Thanks for the info so far. A little update. they have discovered huge natural gas reserves in Mocambique and a pipeline was commissoned about 18 months ago. It is being built as we speak! The SA govt. is pressurizing the gas companies to reduce the cost of LP gas to consumers and ESKOM has been giving out free LPgas canisters and cookers in Kayalitsha after we piloted a scheme in Orange Farm through AFROX.
Important to know the 3/4 consumption rate.
Normal LPGas cannot be used efficiently in motor vehicles I have as they require a purer form. That is why I have plumped for methane and because we can produce it locally. Not sure if it will be in sufficient quantities though.
Once I can run a local domestic unit. I can install a lrger one in mamelodi where Moses stays. Would just love to sell methane and do conversions to local taxis!
Apparently new delhi lives on methane and so does most of pakistan...why not the good old RSA?
Doug
pls explain: why are you ordering a CNG kit. Where do you find CNG in SA? why do you say that cars require a purer form of LPG? (CNG is predominantly methane, wheras LPG is predominantly propane - cars are tuned differently). What kind of problems does it cause? I'd say that if natural gas is available in SA, then CNG is the way to go.
As far as I remember, LPG in SA is synthesized (I assume predominantly ) by SASOL from coal, or it is imported since it comes from natural gas, which SA doesn't have, hence I can see why it should be expensive. For comparison, it costs $15 (around R75) to refill a 9kg LPG canister here at a petrol station. I'm sure commercial contracts (i.e. hospitals, hotels, restaurants) etc must be cheaper. I'll work out what the density of LPG is - i.e. Litres per kilogram, and we'll have a basis for calculation. I'll also find out what the commercial costs are like.
CNG, LPG and methane are gasses, and all are petroleum or coal based. The fuel that was of interest when I worked at Dept. of Mineral & Energy as an "alternative energy" assistant were the alcohols; methanol and ethanol. Both are easily manufactured from biowaste. The raw material of choice for alcohol production is fermentable organic and animal waste - this can be highly accelarated with bio-enhancers and can yield high quality alcohols depending on the raw material and bacterial combination. Manufacturing alcohols is easy for cattle and pig farmers, the problem is the cost and logistics of collecting and taking the small production batches to central collection points.
The last element of auto fuels is sunflower or canola oil, as an alternative to diesel.
This covers the auto fuels. Regarding domestic fuels, your sewerage however, has 2 problems: water dilution and pathology. If one uses fermentable organic waste, then you manufacture alcohols, which are not really suited to domestic consumption. There are waste converters available that generate methane (swamp gas) from compost, but the conversion rates are poor, or houses would be self sufficient with gas to provide waterheating and cooking.
Stellenbosch University (I'm almost certain it was them) did a reseach project in the mid-80's of a domestic waste converter to generate electricty (i.e. generate heat from waste to run a turbine to run a generator) for domestic use. The technology worked, since domestic waste is a nett enegy source when correctly dried and sorted. The practical difficulties were related to separating the waste and to the dryness of the combustible waste. This meant that you need space to store "large" quantities of waste to air-dry; hence storing and preparing domestic waste was not a practical proposition.
So, this leaves us with your original problem unsolved - fuel for transport and fuel for domestic use.
I know you're looking for alterantive fuels, not alternative technology, but electrical technology is the way to go - it is safe, clean and economically viable. Exchange batteries can be charged via solar panels, and for vehicles, up to (I think) 70% of the vehicle's kinetic energy can be recaptured through regenerative braking.
This is not a simple problem, the technology will move towards high efficiency solar panels and batteries for cars and bulk electricity moving towards wind, tidal and nuclear.
Dear Gianni
What I read is that the sewerage pipes idea is not feasible. The smell and the effort required to sort-out waste makes domestic production of fuel unfeasible.
You suggest electric but that means a new fleet of vehicles yeah?
So we are basically fucked unless we all ride horses or go by bicycle.
Hmm ...come on Gianni you can come up with something here.
Oh by the way I am currently in the planning phase of an ethanol producing farming operation.. These guys use indigenous trees and they want me to train people and provide some retail supply chain links. Havent heard from them for a few weeks though.
I got the info about Lp gas from an Indian website: http://www.axisauto.com/
They supply components for cars to use CNG's and Lpgas.
Oh yes so back to electricity...If I got a tray of batteries cwhat would I need to do to simply use them every day to drive our Nissan sentra. Electricity would probably be cheaper than petrol is at present!
I know you are dealing with a complete amateur and a non-engineer...thanks for being so kind and gentle with me on these things. i promise when you need help with social development issues or philosophy or politics, i will be kind to you...
If methane is used in vehicles in Delhi, Brazil and Pakistan then we can use it in our cars. [Agree - it comes from petroleum, either synthesized as by SASOL, or pumped from fields as in India and in the future, we could also pump it from the Mozambique gas fields - I'm sure that Shell, BP, Caltex and the local politicians are onto this already....]
If methane is made from decaying bi-degradable waste, then could we not use one of your water purifiers to take waste water and recycle it and then take the solid bio-degradable waste which has been filtered out and subject this waste to a digestion process? [Yes, the Tswane City Council is already doing this at their sewerage farms , except they bio-degrade the crap, and not turn it into alcohol - wonder why? Fire risk and pilfering, and some serious technology shortage, and the fact that petrol is cheaper.]
I have drawn a rough plan for the house waste which involves a water pump, a plastic 210 litre drum, a readu supply of condoms, an air pump and a gas bottle (with regulator of course). What do you think the production of methane for our house would be? [Probably not enough to power your PC to send these e-mails. ]
Four of us plus the gardener who lives on the premises? [ I could post you ours too....[
humour me [- sarcasm is humour, just not very good humour. ]
[Energy is a technology issue, you won't overcome it with a "grass-roots" approach. Unless we all live in mud huts, use cold water and only need energy for light and running a small fridge to keep the white wine in, even a wealthy family simply cannot generate enough waste to produce viable energy, unless it's willing to spend big money to build an integrated incinerator + steam generating plant + steam turbine + synchronous generator unit. Its ROI would probably be 100,000 years.
For transport, the oil-less solution lies in fuel cells, solar charging of battery technology, power capacitors and energy storage flywheels - which BP, Shell, and Caltex will introduce when the oil runs out - I just hope they get the timing right....
Regarding public infrastructure, mag-lev trains and decentralised work areas linked with super rail networks will greatly reduce the need for micro transport (i.e. people and goods within local areas). In the meanwhile, for as long as consumer-based industry helps getting politicians elected (i.e. while my arse points to the ground), this ain't gonna happen.
Doug, let this one go - turn your attention to removing the cost of transport, or import a few thousand Chinese and Thai men with rickshaws....]
Dear Gianni
This I guess is part of the difference twixt thee and me. Once I get a little idea in my head I cannot let it go...
Something you said made me call Mr. Mostert at the Baviaanspoort sewerage works. he reports that they use the gasses to fire some turbines in their works!
He also remembers a Marlene vd Merwe who studied the use of methane and is currently working at the Krugersdorp works. I have her e-mail address and will get back to you. Apparently there are a number of others interested in her work and she actually runs the labs vehicles off methane.
Mr. Mostert has no problem with the concept and even suggested we could run a tester at his works on one of the smaller sludge dams as he would be most interested in saving petrol on his works' vehicles!
Now if we could hook our wagons on the baviaanspoort gas....our petrol costs dissapear....
posted by Dug at
3:14 am
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